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View Poll Results: Should Finland join Nato?
Yes 10 34.48%
No 15 51.72%
Don't know 4 13.79%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 27th-September-2008   #31 (permalink)
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Ooo right i have never really noticed that before lol Be interesting to look out for in future.
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Old 27th-September-2008   #32 (permalink)
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In WWII Finland was neutral and not even their friends in Sweden helped them! Imagine how the war would have went if Sweden and Finland fought side by side against the Soviets? I think that the Soviets would have lost lot of land. That is a good argument for joining NATO.
Actually Finland fought first arm to arm with the Nazis and then swapped the sides and became the Soviet's ally. That is not neutral at all, just swapping sides as it suits better.
And Swedes took a lot of Finnish kids to take care of them during the war: Finnish war children - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
If that's not help, then what is it?[/quote]

NO! you are wrong!

Winter War - TalviSota
In the winter war, Stalin and Hitler divided eastern Europe including Finland among them. Finland was considered to be in the Soviet sphere of influence. Russia attacked Finland after "The Mainila incident" (False Flag Operation) when Russian artillery opened fire on its own men and declared war claiming that Finland attacked first. The pretext for war was that Stalin wanted to increase the distance between St. Petersburg and the border.

Continuation War - JatkoSota
During the Continuation war, Finland allowed German troops to move over Finnish soil between the coast and Norway. This was allowed because if the Germans pushed, then the Finns could not have defended for long, also Russian troops were building up close to the border. However the Germans actually moved their troops to the border in preparation for Operation Barbarossa without permission! What could the Finnish goverment do? start a war? No, they were glad to have the German troops to help defend Finland as it looked like the Russians were about to attack!

There was no official alliance between Finland and Germany, it was more like a marriage of convenience.

In the case of Sweden; by help I mean military assistance! However it is only right to say that 1000's of Swedish citizens did volunteer to fight for Finland!

There was apparently a famous saying among Finnish army veterans just after the war:

"The East took our men, the Germans took our women, the Swedes took our children. But at least we are left with our war debt."

Quote from "The Winter War" page 148 by Eloise Engel and Lauri Paanen.
ISBN: 0-8117-2433-6

Last edited by drummerac; 27th-September-2008 at 09:50 PM. Reason: I found the quote
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Old 29th-September-2008   #33 (permalink)
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Haha. Finland was not "allied" with Soviets. It was just a part of the peace treaty to get rid of our German friends in Finland - and i think you know it very well.
Sorry, one way or another you interprete this, peace treaty or happy marriage (according to drummerac), it shows Finns cannot be trusted because one day Germans are friends, next they are being kicked out.
You are posting too fast!
"The East took our men, the Germans took our women, the Swedes took our children. But at least we are left with our war debt."

Drummerac - Germans did not take any women - the Finnish women gave themselves rather eagerly to the Wermacht boys. Read the book "Pojat" as an example.
And Sweden took the kids to help the poor buggers survive the war, those kids were sent there by their own parents. Not taken as prisoners.

As for men dying in the wars, that's not any Finish phenomena, happens everywhere.

Last edited by someone; 29th-September-2008 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 12th-October-2008   #34 (permalink)
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Sorry, one way or another you interprete this, peace treaty or happy marriage (according to drummerac), it shows Finns cannot be trusted because one day Germans are friends, next they are being kicked out.
You are posting too fast!
"The East took our men, the Germans took our women, the Swedes took our children. But at least we are left with our war debt."

Drummerac - Germans did not take any women - the Finnish women gave themselves rather eagerly to the Wermacht boys. Read the book "Pojat" as an example.
And Sweden took the kids to help the poor buggers survive the war, those kids were sent there by their own parents. Not taken as prisoners.

As for men dying in the wars, that's not any Finish phenomena, happens everywhere.
I dont think that the world sees Finland as untrustworthy, in fact the same could be said about Italy who also "changed sides" during the war, but in that case, Italy was a major aggressor. Finland in my opinion, made the best of its own situation, the ambitions of teh Finns were not to conquer new lands, but merely to live in peace. Unfortunately due to its geographic location, that was not possible.

Finland was at sea in a storm and there were no safe harbours of safety. I think Finnish independence is a triumph of arms and diplomacy.

Yes, you are right, I think the quote is quite cynical and typical of the Finnish stereotype. The quote is supposed to describe the mixed feelings that the veterans felt after all of their efforts fighting in the war. In other words they felt that they were left with very little after their heroic efforts.

A good friend of mine is the grandchild of one of those "Wehrmacht boys"

Last edited by drummerac; 26th-October-2008 at 10:56 PM. Reason: mmm I entered trustworthy instead of UNtrustworthy, apologies for any offence I caused.
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Old 26th-October-2008   #35 (permalink)
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Default Finland already is signed up to the PFP agreement

Finland has for historical reasons, been very mindful of their neighbour to the east when determining their foreign policy.

Since the collapse of the old USSR, NATO has expanded steadily closer to Moscow as more and more of the former soviet countries have joined the organisation.

Finland spends a considerable sum of its GDP on defense, almost all men have to do compulsory national service. Money that could, possibly be spent more appropriately on health services or education for example. Link to article on Finnish defence forces website:

http://www.mil.fi/perustietoa/julkai.../chapter_6.dsp

Joining NATO would considerably alter the relationship that Finland, and perhaps even the EU, has with Russia.

There are many pros and cons to joining. The more appropriate way would be for a national referendum on the issue. However.......

The relationship between NATO & Finland is governed through Nato's Partnership for Peace framework, which Finland joined in 1994. Finnish cooperation with NATO is based on its longstanding policy of military non-alignment and a firm national political consensus. From this basis, Finland selects areas of cooperation with NATO that match joint objectives. The country monitors developments within NATO, and there is an ongoing domestic discussion on the merits of a possible future application for membership of the Alliance.

NATO views Finland as an effective and pro-active partner and contributor to international security, which shares key values such as the promotion of international security, democracy and human rights.

Finland has already worked alongside NATO in security and peacekeeping operations in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Kosovo and Afghanistan

Finland works alongside NATO forces as part of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan. Approximately 100 Finnish personnel work primarily with Provincial Reconstruction Teams in the north of the country. The Finnish deployment began in 2002. Finnish forces have also played significant roles in securing peace in the former Yugoslavia. Approximately 400 soldiers are now operating with the NATO-led KFOR in Kosovo. In the past, Finland contributed a battalion to the NATO-led peacekeeping force in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

So in a way even though Finland is not actually a signed up member of NATO it still participates in NATO activities.

One could say that its NATO membership by another name.....

Ekenäs



The bit below is an aside about the 2nd string in this forum regarding the war....


It is very much the case that Sweden, a neutral country, did assist Finland during the war in indirect ways.

Only eight European nations were capable of sustaining a policy of neutrality throughout the entire war (the others being Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Andorra, Liechtenstein, Vatican City and Switzerland).

Sweden managed to maintain this delicate balance and avoid engagement in the European conflict.

The Swedish government made many concessions at the time to Germany, for example allowing the Wehrmacht to use Swedish railways to transport an infantry division, along with war material freight, i.e., howitzers, tanks and anti-aircraft weapons and associated ammunition, from Norway to Finland, and to transport soldiers on leave between Norway and Germany.

They also gave shelter to thousands of Finnish refugees, mostly children during the war. Both my neighbour and mother in law were such children who would otherwise have had a very different war time experience.

Not far from where I live, thousands of Swedish soldiers, in swedish uniforms were dug in alongside Finnish soldiers against the Russians during the war. Their swedish insignias had been removed from their uniforms and Finnish colours had been painted on their helmets. I understand that 'officially' they were AWOL.

Ekenäs

Last edited by Ekenäs; 29th-October-2008 at 07:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 26th-October-2008   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekenäs View Post
.... Not far from where I live, thousands of Swedish soldiers, in swedish uniforms were dug in alongside Finnish soldiers against the Russians during the war. Their swedish insignias had been removed from their uniforms and Finnish colours had been painted on their helmets. I understand that 'officially' they were AWOL.

Ekenäs
The fact that Swedish citzens helped in Finlands defence is admirable, but the fact that Sweden proper did not help militarily is still a source of shame for Sweden. The Swedish prime minister apologised a few years ago.
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Old 26th-October-2008   #37 (permalink)
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Should'nt matter what russia think, they dont and can't control us. So they should stop using their weight to make other countries decide to agree things that russia sees fit. We should just tell them to F*** off
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Old 27th-October-2008   #38 (permalink)
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Well some Finnish people think that there is still a threat from Russia.But i don't think there is any. But if Finland will join in NATO, then it will get lot of attention from Russia I guess.
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Old 28th-October-2008   #39 (permalink)
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Default Finland and Nato

Some links for Finnish military activity with Nato etc







Finnish hardware....

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Old 30th-October-2008   #40 (permalink)
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Default Hm!

Is possible russian attack Finland?
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