Penguin88

Points: 451, Level: 9

Activity: 33%

I've just finished reading 'winter war' by William R Trotter (great book, recommend it) and it's got me thinking about the half million or so Finnish and Karelian refugees that were practically exiled from their burning homes upon the signing of the treaty in March 1940. Finland kept it's sovereignty but lost the entire Karelian Isthmus, Hanko and some coast line next to it, the entire Rybachi peninsula in the north including the only Finnish arctic port of Petsamo, and every single naturally strong defensive line that they had.

Talk of some pan-scandinavian venture to regain these lands is nonsense, especially how the Swedish government were brutally selfish and cruel in their political actions to Finland (dirty politics at play as usual, of which the British and French unsurprisingly turned up to do their fair share of), but I wonder what Finnish thoughts are on these lost territories being re-ceded to Finland by diplomacy, force or whatever. Is there a genuine sour taste in the public's mouth concerning the loss of what was by blood right Finnish soil and any genuine feeling of desire for these lands back?

Be interesting to hear Finns opinions.

(Also I reckon there should be a Finnish history section of the forum )

Tappaja

Points: 1,018, Level: 17

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Well, most of the Finns are not too interested to get "Karjala" back. At least not according to polls. However, the topic sure can heat feelings in many Finns, especially in older folks. I think the main reasons for negative attitudes are money and that the population there is nowadays almost completely Russian(which it wasnt 70 years ago). It is considered that the today's infrastructure there is in so poor level it would cost shit load of money... I have seen somewhere calculations that it would cost something like 30 billion euros to rebuild the area(Finland's year 2007 budget was about 50 billion). Dunno about the numbers, but "would cost too much" is the argument i have heard most usually.

Anyway the Russians now living there, about 300 000 persons, cannot be kicked out and on other hand they are not too welcome to live in Finland either(not that they probably even want to!). As Estonia - and Georgia most recently - has seen it is not a good thing to have large Russian minority in your own country. Russia seems to have this thing to defend it's "own people" even in foreign territory. Hehe. Most importantly, Russia doesnt wanna give it back.

And ofcourse, some day Russia would perhaps wanna get it back... And after that, maybe even more (:

drummerac

Points: 1,726, Level: 24

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I read a few years ago that a senior Finnish General stated that the Finnish government will formally ask for Karelia back. He was given a swift slap on the wrists and the government apologised to Russia.

A few years ago, after the President of Finland inquired with Vladimir Putin, he told her that the issue was already decided with Russian blood and that any further inquiries would be deemed a hostile act!

I cant remember the exact words, but the remarks from Mr. Putin were very stern indeed.

If Karelia does return to the Fatherland (Isanmaa) then I believe that EU diplomacy will be the cause. There are lots of Youtube movies available dealing with Finnish history.

There are some WWII propaganda movies here.

Penguin88

Points: 451, Level: 9

Activity: 33%

Damn drummer, I never knew that, harsh words from Russia indeed, but perhaps not so surprising.. btw I found a way through the youtube ban so ill check of those vids out, cheers.

thanks for your view tappaja, 30bl euros would be a bit of a tall order I guess, it wouldn't economically prudent.. I never considered the Russians who live there now, no doubt the Result of Stalins population relocations that cost the lives of so many innocent people in the entire ussr. I guess it being returned to Finland would be nothing more than something to do with pride, the practicalities of absorbing it back (plus the little difficulty of the russians there now) would be too big to bother..

did you have any family that fought in the war?

edit:
I watched some of those videos, the ones of the civil war in 1918.
Red and white hatred was just so huge, horrible to see the prisoners of either side executed in such merciless cold blood. A civil war is always more disturbing because it shows the raw human capability for bloodlust since they make no distinction between a fellow countryman or a foreign soldier. They are reds, or whites, right or wrong, and that's what rationalises it in their minds.

As lenin once said, "Out of every hundred Bolsheviks 70 are fools and 29 rogues, and only one a real socialist" - this applies to practically every group of political activists, and becomes obvious in times of conflict, most just hitch a ride to try the taste of sanctioned violence..

Tappaja

Points: 1,018, Level: 17

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Yea, my both grandfathers.

Fañch

Points: 196, Level: 3

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That is so right, heard the very same about money issue ; quite evident since everything turns around money nowadays, but if we follow this idea to the end then the government could even sell Lapland or some other "poor-ecomically income areas" so as to make the rest of the state even richer - Uusimaa would then form a great country only based on economic rates and dedicated to rich people, sounds sooooooo cool...
Damn, West & East Germany reunified, eventhough the east was so poor (and is still compared to ex-Western Germany) ; but I just don't understand how people (and not only in Finland) only get back to money issue without even thinking of claiming their basic rights (here regarding a stolen territory). And I am not a pan-scandinavian partisan ready for some stupid war again or whatever, I'm talking about having the guts to claim your own rights before considering economics on a second hand - Mmm, all this sounds like a left-wing anarchist side showing up here
Anyway, I know it's not the job of politics to consider things in that order.

BF63

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It is totally absurd to think that Finland would have Karjala back.

Firstly - Russia will never give it back. Mr. Putin made it really clear while he was still the president of the "Big Brother".

Secondly - those over-enthusiastic Finnish politicians & Karjala activists talking about wanting & getting back Karjala region should all first go and have a good look what it's really like now on the other side of the eastern border.
Finnish tax payers will never have the money nor the will to put all that effort to rebuild a totally exploited and poor piece of land. To want something like that based just on emotional reasons is ridiculous.

Get real and wake up. It's a waste of air to go on and on about it.

And when it comes to Russia been a threat to Finland.... they are already.
Helsinki is already a "mini-Moscow". Just go there, stand for example on Aleksanterinkatu, close your eyes for a few minutes and just listen. What do you hear - Russian everywhere!

Russia wants that Finland would give up requiring VISAs for Russians travelling to Finland. My sincerely hope is that this will never happen! If any Russian can just walk over the eastern border, Finland will be in deep trouble. The eastern border must never be opened!

Penguin88

Points: 451, Level: 9

Activity: 33%

Oh interesting, thanks for your view, a bit of sobering common sense!
And is Russian really that common in Helsinki? How do they get in so many of them?

Fañch

Points: 196, Level: 3

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"And when it comes to Russia been a threat to Finland.... they are already.
Helsinki is already a "mini-Moscow"[...]Russian everywhere![...]If any Russian can just walk over the eastern border, Finland will be in deep trouble. The eastern border must never be opened![...] " Tell me what kind of common sense is that?? With common sense, there would have been no WW.

Some are actually the children or grandchildren of Ingrians to whom was given Finnish nationality (Koivisto 1991?). Don't have the rates here but I read somewhere it was the majority of today's Finland's russian-speaking population (figures might be found on the net I guess).
Regarding the rest of them..."usual immigrants"? Don't know.

Penguin88

Points: 451, Level: 9

Activity: 33%

"Tell me what kind of common sense is that?? With common sense, there would have been no WW."
Common sense in financial, humanitarian terms, and simply practicality. The example of East Germany still sucking funds from western Germany was a good example. Sure the Invasion was was not a nice thing (not necessarily not common sense though, from the Russian point of view I guess it would have been common sense), but unless Karelia was returned in an act of goodwill and with all the cash needed to bring it up to the rest of Finland's standard (despite the lack of Finnic peoples there now) the idea of regaining it is really nothing more than an impracticality I suppose.

I think maybe the world has a major lesson to learn from the Finns sobering attitude with this issue, it would save a lot of needless bloodshed around to world in the name of 'blood rights' over land that humans scratched invisible borders into..